Polish-Lithuania, variety [решено]

My fingers are crossed on some expertise.

My 5 hours of research has been fun but, no closer to a variety and more questions than when I started. Purchased the following that was advertised as "German States".


1.49 g / 20.41 mm / 0.62 mm

I've made it at far as Polish-Lithuania and the Mint = Kraków.

Question #1
Are there any Polish speaking members out there that have access to Adam Gorecki catalogues? (My Polish language skills are abysmal)

Question #2
Any suggestions on good websites regarding hammered coins? (die states, flans, die wear, etc. etc. etc. I'm new to these and would appreciate a crash course)

Question #3
Do any members use Onebid? They seem to be very active in this area and prices range from the 10's to the 100's of Euros for this type.

Lastly, an excellent historical read on Sigismund III. Imagine starting your life born in prison.

Edit. https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces136189.html

You have my sympathies. I haven't found a great reference either. Similar designs exist on the Polish, Lithuanian sides, the Swedish occupied cities as well as Brandenburg and other German States. I believe there a number of contemporary counterfeits that look superficially similar too. Many are in Numista now, but varieties are not well imaged.
Nice coin by the way!

What do you need to know ? Recommend you to get Kopicki catalog
Regards,
Damian

Resembles this one:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces136366.html

Very close, but the Sas (at 6:00 reverse) is in an oval, not a shield.

I do not have Gorecki and I do not speak Polish, but have quite a few Polish coins. Will do some research ans see what I can find.

Geralttt is the go-to guy here for Poland.

Not yet a definitive answer, but slowly by process of elimination looking in the Numista and the WCN archive:

1. The coin is Bydgoszcz, not Krakow. Issues from the Krakow mint are distinguished by the hooks after REG POL reverse, and yours has none https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces136192.html. So that leaves us all of the Gorecki B.16 subtypes.

2. During the year 1616, the crown treasurer Stanislaw Warszycki dies. His emblem is a W inside a small shield seen at 6:00 reverse on Gorecki B.16.1. So we can eliminate this variety.

3. His replacement is Nikolas Danilowicz, whose emblem in the Sas (upward pointing arrow with a star on either side, and a crescent below). Gorecki type B.16.5 has the Sas inside an oval (at least 16.5.b and 16.5.c), so I think we can eliminate this type.

4. Gorecki type B.16.6 has the Sas inside a shield like yours, but has retrograde letter N in MONE NO. (at least for 16.6.b and 16.6.f).

So, my best guess at this point is that your coin is one of the remaining types for 1616 Bydgoszcz: 16.2, 16.3 or 16.4.

And I would say the condition of your coin is extraordinary. These types are almost always poorly struck with mushy details. Some things about the obverse look a little unusual (lettering and the "3" inside the shield at 6:00)... Hopefully one of our real Poland experts can help some more.

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?lot=190&p=lot&sid=2791

Gorecki B.16.6.c/a. And Kopicki 840 (though I think this covers multiple Gorecki types with the Sas)
The cross and orb side is even a die match, I think (small dot over the 2, etc.).

That's a fantastic coin you have. Love the condition of it!

Funny thing...I just spent a few hours looking up a couple coins I have that are similar to yours.

1622 3 Polker-1/24 Thaler (Sigismund III)

and 1624 3 Polker-1/24 Thaler (Sigisimund III).


I spent quite some time trying to find Gorecki online. No luck in any language.

The NGC site has the coin listed here as a Groschen, 1601 to 1627:
https://www.ngccoin.com/price-guide/world/poland-groschen-km-11-1627-cuid-1095849-duid-1545139.

My coins match these Numista pieces, but I have no idea how to determine subtypes without finding Gorecki:
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces136366.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces136368.html

Peter has a different Vasa type instead of 3 he have vasa coat of arms. I saw such coins before but right now cant find it ;/
Hope that my catalogs help,
Damian

@RMel, NGC has a lot of mistakes for Poland coins. I don't recommend it.
The coin in the NGC link is a poltorak of the Swedish occupation of Elbing, issued in the name of Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden. So NGC got the denomination and the issuing entity wrong.

I think your second coin is Gorecki B.24.2, but I can't go beyond that.

Thank you everyone for your help and comments (and I apologize for taking so long to reply).

I believe tdziemia's link to the "Gorecki B.16.6.c/a. And Kopicki 840" is a match.

The best $25 CAD I've spent on a coin in a long time, perhaps ever. Many historical and numismatic Rabbit Holes!

Kind Regards