It's an English language catalog, it's a Florin, not a Flóirin. As to the ridiculous 2 Scilling, I've yet to meet a collector who uses anything other than Shilling, so where does this nonsense come from? Gaelic? Don't be ridiculous.
Once again, a huge step backwards in functionality for the sake of changes for the sake of changes. Nobody was asked about it, nobody was asking for it, so who is doing this and why?
Nobody uses alt codes to search for a coin, it doesn't match any other reference source, it's completely bloody useless.
Give me one single benefit gained from making these absurd changes.... just one.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
"The currency should be written as it is usually spelled in English. If the English name differs from the local name or its romanization, the local name should be given in brackets."
Seems pretty straightforward to me. Now the entire Egyptian Pound section has been transformed into Gunayh's. I mean what the hell is a gunyah. I've never heard of it.
It seems there is a destructive clique who seem determined to relegate the Numista database into a niche for people who are fluent in every obscure language in the world and have several pages of alt codes taped to their monitor.
I suspect it's some type of attempt at elitism or coin snobbery. "I'm a better collector than you because I can use Google translate and cut and paste".
It's bloody stupid and it needs to be halted and restored to the common sense lingua franca denominations.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Totally agree! In Advanced search one can enter anything into Lettering field and search by what they see on a coin this way, e.g. Flóirin in this particular case. Does not apply as easily to Phil's example of Egyptian coins but still is a better way of organizing the catalog.
I think the denominations should be expressed in English - with the Irish-Gaelic names indicated in brackets,especially in the case of the 1928-69 coins.
The problem goes far beyond being able to interrogate the Numista database. For me, as I guess for many of you, Numista is a quick reference tool to identify a coin and get the basics. It doesn't offer a price or any really detailed info. so you need to be able to cross reference with sites that do.
Any collectors who have moved being the pocket change stage need to be able to use Numista as a gateway to more specialized catalogs. How can you do this when the coin you have just identified as a Gunyah is listed everywhere else as a Pound? Might as well just skip the Numista part if this madness doesn't get cleared up and damn quick.
So.... who is doing these mutilations? Who was consulted? Does it serve any purpose beyond flattering somebody's ego? Does anyone think it's a good idea?
Answers please.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Цитата: "pnightingale"The problem goes far beyond being able to interrogate the Numista database. For me, as I guess for many of you, Numista is a quick reference tool to identify a coin and get the basics. It doesn't offer a price or any really detailed info. so you need to be able to cross reference with sites that do.
Any collectors who have moved being the pocket change stage need to be able to use Numista as a gateway to more specialized catalogs. How can you do this when the coin you have just identified as a Gunyah is listed everywhere else as a Pound?
+1
Local names can be entered in the comments box if necessary. It is a huge pain in the neck to cross reference Numista with the KM catalog, specially since Numista is KM based. It's not just currency names.... Names of kings in the Nepal section have been changed to something that is neither in English or the local language. Well meant but messed up because of ignorance of local names
Цитата: "pnightingale"Does anyone think it's a good idea?
No, it's a very bad idea. We should use the English denominations, that's understandable for everyone, no matter where they live. I can live with the names in the original language between brackets, but even that is not necessary for me. Just keep it simple, too much information makes things often chaotic.
I totally agree with you Phil and I share your concerns but I also have 2 further concerns on this subject:
1> The person or persons responsible for this catalogue catastrophe will not have the balls to own up to their mistakes;
2> There is no-one with the authority to correct the catalogue that has either the time or the inclination to implement the massive number of changes needed;
I hope I am wrong and my fears are unjustified but every time there are complaints about this type of mis-nomenclature, the catalogue admin seem to be strangely silent.
Just because you can't see it ... doesn't mean it isn't there - Anon.
Цитата: "pnightingale"I mean what the hell is a gunyah.
I hear you, and I agree 100% with you. I have brought up this earlier as well, but I reckon you should be more respectful towards other languages than your own. If you've ever heard of a Gunayh, who's the ignorant?
But I have noticed that I have lost quite a few coins in my collection - but gained new ones!
I no longer have any 1, 2 and 5, 10, 25 and 50 qirush coins. They are now "Qirsh", "Qirushān", "Qirūsh", and "Qirshā". Why?
My Syrian pounds are gone, but I've got "Līrah" and "Līrāt Sūriyah". My Santimes are now called "Santīmā", and my Dinars are called Danānīr and Dīnārā. Same goes with: Dirhams - Darāham, Riyal - Riyālāt, Baisa - Baīsah.
I do now what a "Līrāt Sūriyah" is, but I still can't understand the reason for the change. Most users of English keyboards can't use diacritic letters without any codes, which makes it even harder for them. I love languages, and I could've been the ones who did this (but I didn't), but I would keep the "native" names to my own collection, and use the English names on a public website. I mean, how should any non-arabic person know the four plural forms of qirsh, dinar, and dirhams?
No, I'd say it's time to clean up the North African and Middle East section and changed the names to everyone can find their coins!
The referee for the Irish catalogue is everyone's favourite team member Florino28, so they would be the one to complain to, since they were the person who, if they didn't make the changes themselves, at least approved the changes.
Цитата: "ngdawa"but I reckon you should be more respectful towards other languages than your own.
Let me assure you it has nothing to do with disrespectfulness towards other languages, it's all about common sense and comprehensibility.
It's for the same reason we all speak English here, even if it's not or mother tongue or even some of us have to use google translate to do so.
So what's the next step after changing the denominations in the original language, that we all going to speak here our own language?
Цитата: "pnightingale"I mean what the hell is a gunyah.
I hear you, and I agree 100% with you. I have brought up this earlier as well, but I reckon you should be more respectful towards other languages than your own. If you've ever heard of a Gunayh, who's the ignorant?
But I have noticed that I have lost quite a few coins in my collection - but gained new ones!
I no longer have any 1, 2 and 5, 10, 25 and 50 qirush coins. They are now "Qirsh", "Qirushān", "Qirūsh", and "Qirshā". Why?
My Syrian pounds are gone, but I've got "Līrah" and "Līrāt Sūriyah". My Santimes are now called "Santīmā", and my Dinars are called Danānīr and Dīnārā. Same goes with: Dirhams - Darāham, Riyal - Riyālāt, Baisa - Baīsah.
I do now what a "Līrāt Sūriyah" is, but I still can't understand the reason for the change. Most users of English keyboards can't use diacritic letters without any codes, which makes it even harder for them. I love languages, and I could've been the ones who did this (but I didn't), but I would keep the "native" names to my own collection, and use the English names on a public website. I mean, how should any non-arabic person know the four plural forms of qirsh, dinar, and dirhams?
No, I'd say it's time to clean up the North African and Middle East section and changed the names to everyone can find their coins!
Common names in English should be used.
It annoys me seeing 'Lariat' written in English,when the correct currency unit is 'Laari' in both singular & plural.
'Lariat' is actually Arabic,yet 'Laari' is actually Divehi - the native language of the Maldives.
Malta's 1972-2007 currency was the Maltese Pound - the name 'Lira' is actually derived from Italian.
It's not a question of respect or ignorance but of functionality.
The question regarding a Gunyah was somewhat rhetorical, I do know what it is and how it's derived but I'm guessing that if you asked 1,000 passers by maybe one would know the answer. So how is that helpful?
There are between 6,000 and 7,000 living languages in the world, when you can speak each one of them fluently then we can have a conversation about "ignorance". It's a coin website aimed mostly at the non specialist not a dead language society. I don't wish to wade through idiotic translations to be able to use it.
To make things perfectly clear, I speak two languages very fluently, English and American. Anything else I need to know I learn. So I can take an educated guess at a legend in Latin, read Islamic dates without having to look them up, and I'm familiar with many of the abbreviations and non English terms commonly found on coins. I learned these things because they are pretty much essential skills for a coin collector. However I have no desire to pretend to be more intelligent or sophisticated than God intended me to be, by pretending to be familiar with every local rendering of every Anglicized term. I suspect that this is the real motive behind these destructive changes, "Hey look at me guyz, I speak all these languages... are you impressed????"
No, you are misusing Google translate without understanding what you are copying and pasting and fooling no one.
I enjoy very much leaning about local translations but the place to do that is in the open forums not the catalog, which should deliver the maximum information in the fewest words. Keep it simple and compatible with other sources. By making Numista less accessible and intuitive for the users we will simply drive away new collectors and frustrate older ones.
We need to know who is responsible for this ego driven vandalism, take away their access to the catalog and then start repairing the damage. That's going to be a long job because this has been going on for some time now and the various complaints have been predictably ignored.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
I'll already be very satisfied if the one who's responsible for this steps forwards, admits he made a mistake and starts correcting it. I can believe he was just overactive and did it with the best intentions, so taking away his access to the catalog is a bit drastically. Nevertheless, the damage must be restored and preferably by the responsible person. Then he will have learned his lesson and knows he can't make drastic changes in the future without prior consultation.
Actually, yeah good point EP. He or she can't fix the mess without access.
Maybe you're right and it was done for good reasons, but I can't see what those reasons might be and nobody is coming forward to explain them. Perhaps removing access is too drastic but somebody needs to be supervising these out of control kiddies to stop this kind of thing from recurring.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
As mentioned above, the page has not been edited and the denomination has been the same since the page was added 6 years ago. It was added by an anonymous contributor at the time that every visitor (member or not) still could contribute. No-one is to be blamed here so no-one has to step forward.
Цитата: "pnightingale"Actually, yeah good point EP. He or she can't fix the mess without access.
Maybe you're right and it was done for good reasons, but I can't see what those reasons might be and nobody is coming forward to explain them. Perhaps removing access is too drastic but somebody needs to be supervising these out of control kiddies to stop this kind of thing from recurring.
I complained about the changes ad nauseum last time and I find it galling that it was done again in clear violation of guidelines. Change the damn currencies back to something usable full stop.
I find it very ironic that someone would be willing to spend all this time complaining about it, instead of just going and fixing it, especially when it has already been made abundantly clear that this was not a recent change.
The date at which a single example was last altered is irrelevant.
If you are referring to me, why would I waste my time cleaning up somebody else's mess when the "improvements" are still going on? Until we find out who is doing the damage and put a stop to it and make sure that it isn't going to continue then there isn't much point is there?
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
So as one team member had put it, it was there for 6 years. So I made the changes and changed "Pingin" to "Penny" in the word value data, and left the Irish names in the titles. Members will now be able to find Irish coins when searching for "Penny" in the search function. Modification history shows that the names "Pingin" were added when the page was added, and the latest data backup shows that member "81.57.176.6" added the coin.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Personally I have no problem with the local names being in the description, as long as the English names are there as well so you can find it in a search. I mean, it is actually written on the coin pingin, reul, scilling, floirin, etc
Цитата: "pnightingale"The date at which a single example was last altered is irrelevant.
If you are referring to me, why would I waste my time cleaning up somebody else's mess when the "improvements" are still going on? Until we find out who is doing the damage and put a stop to it and make sure that it isn't going to continue then there isn't much point is there?
Yes, I'm referring to you. You started this thread complaining about a specific coin in a specific country, using wording like "once again", "extended to Ireland", "so who is doing it", etc implying that this was a recent change and that someone is maliciously sabotaging Ireland's listings in the database and now you say the date is irrelevant. Funny.
It was pointed out to you that there had been no recent changes to it. So, while this one example suffers from the same problem that recently popped up elsewhere, it clearly is not part of the same batch of changes and very likely was not even submitted by the same person. Unless you are aware of any recent changes that involved Ireland, this particular coin's listing can be dealt with as a one-off and fixed here and now. You are perfectly capable of fixing it, are you not? Or, do you think it will fix itself? Or, that it's better to wait until the entire database is unusable before any fixes are applied?
Цитата: "pnightingale"The date at which a single example was last altered is irrelevant.
If you are referring to me, why would I waste my time cleaning up somebody else's mess when the "improvements" are still going on? Until we find out who is doing the damage and put a stop to it and make sure that it isn't going to continue then there isn't much point is there?
Yes, I'm referring to you. You started this thread complaining about a specific coin in a specific country, using wording like "once again", "extended to Ireland", "so who is doing it", etc implying that this was a recent change and that someone is maliciously sabotaging Ireland's listings in the database and now you say the date is irrelevant. Funny.
It was pointed out to you that there had been no recent changes to it. So, while this one example suffers from the same problem that recently popped up elsewhere, it clearly is not part of the same batch of changes and very likely was not even submitted by the same person. Unless you are aware of any recent changes that involved Ireland, this particular coin's listing can be dealt with as a one-off and fixed here and now. You are perfectly capable of fixing it, are you not? Or, do you think it will fix itself? Or, that it's better to wait until the entire database is unusable before any fixes are applied?
I'm not able to review the date at which changes are made and as I don't take a screenshot of every country before going to bed and compare it again in the morning to see if any changes have been made during the night by the coin fairies then it's really a case of when I notice it, not when it occurred.
Again, the date is irrelevant, the non standard denominations are just as undesirable if they were done last week or last year. I'm not sure why you are so hung up on singling out this one example of many.
Are you seriously suggesting that I should undertake a massive one man campaign to revert all these changes which may have been taking place for many years without first discussing it with others? That would be just as idiotic as making these stupid changes in the first place. It would also be a tremendous waste of time and energy if our mystery linguist, who seems to still consider he is right and the rest of the world wrong, simply changes them all back again. If you feel that strongly about it, then why don't you do it instead of trying to tell me how I should spend my free time?
I trust my motives are sufficiently clear and don't need to be reinterpreted by you.
From this point forward I will choose to treat your snide condescension with the contempt it deserves.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Цитата: "neilithic"Personally I have no problem with the local names being in the description, as long as the English names are there as well so you can find it in a search. I mean, it is actually written on the coin pingin, reul, scilling, floirin, etc
Exactly, this is why I put both penny and pingin, and shilling and scilling on the pages, with the latter names already on the page. Easy search and accurate, and the Arabic coinage should also have piastres and liras.
Kenny
- Verifying your Asian and British-territorial coins everyday with the best quality photos and the best information.
Цитата: "pnightingale"The date at which a single example was last altered is irrelevant.
If you are referring to me, why would I waste my time cleaning up somebody else's mess when the "improvements" are still going on? Until we find out who is doing the damage and put a stop to it and make sure that it isn't going to continue then there isn't much point is there?
Yes, I'm referring to you. You started this thread complaining about a specific coin in a specific country, using wording like "once again", "extended to Ireland", "so who is doing it", etc implying that this was a recent change and that someone is maliciously sabotaging Ireland's listings in the database and now you say the date is irrelevant. Funny.
It was pointed out to you that there had been no recent changes to it. So, while this one example suffers from the same problem that recently popped up elsewhere, it clearly is not part of the same batch of changes and very likely was not even submitted by the same person. Unless you are aware of any recent changes that involved Ireland, this particular coin's listing can be dealt with as a one-off and fixed here and now. You are perfectly capable of fixing it, are you not? Or, do you think it will fix itself? Or, that it's better to wait until the entire database is unusable before any fixes are applied?
I'm not able to review the date at which changes are made and as I don't take a screenshot of every country before going to bed and compare it again in the morning to see if any changes have been made during the night by the coin fairies then it's really a case of when I notice it, not when it occurred.
Again, the date is irrelevant, the non standard denominations are just as undesirable if they were done last week or last year. I'm not sure why you are so hung up on singling out this one example of many.
Are you seriously suggesting that I should undertake a massive one man campaign to revert all these changes which may have been taking place for many years without first discussing it with others? That would be just as idiotic as making these stupid changes in the first place. It would also be a tremendous waste of time and energy if our mystery linguist, who seems to still consider he is right and the rest of the world wrong, simply changes them all back again. If you feel that strongly about it, then why don't you do it instead of trying to tell me how I should spend my free time?
I trust my motives are sufficiently clear and don't need to be reinterpreted by you.
You are the one that started this thread with that link in it, not I. Of course, you can't see the dates of changes, that's why euromount and Kenny kindly stepped in and provided that information for us. As it turned out, you were wrong and this was not a recent change. Oh, ok. Maybe you could recognize that you were too quick to jump to conclusions and just fix the damn thing, but nooo.... You just keep rambling on and on as if you didn't hear it instead of addressing the problem that you identified and now expect someone else to deal with. It's funny that you should talk about reinterpreting, because I was abundantly clear in suggesting that you could fix just this one coin's listing as a one-off thing. Oh, that's too much for you to spend your free time on? Well, then, don't complain when no one else wants to spend their free time to fix it for you. Your problem, you deal with it. How about that?
What's even more funny is that you think it's a tremendous waste of time and energy because our mystery linguist did exactly that. He single-handedly made all those changes and, according to you, is willing to do them again. Now, that's dedication!
What I feel strongly about is that instead of just pointing at a problem and screaming "There! Wrong!" you, the person who's been the most vocal in expressing your dissatisfaction, should do more than just complain.
If the guidelines had been followed we wouldn't be having this conversation. The English translation should be in the title, not hidden away on the individual page. Local translations can be added to the "see also" box, the "comments" field or even the "value" field. Not the other way around.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Just my humble opinion, but I would like to see both in the title, with the local term in brackets e.g. instead of having "1 Flóirin / 2 Scilling" have it as "1 Florin/2 Shillings (1 Flóirin / 2 Scilling)"
Цитата: "neilithic"Just my humble opinion, but I would like to see both in the title, with the local term in brackets e.g. instead of having "1 Flóirin / 2 Scilling" have it as "1 Florin/2 Shillings (1 Flóirin / 2 Scilling)"
Well that would work I reckon although I can't see what benefits it would achieve.
I read somewhere (or equally likely misread, as I was looking for something else) that New Guinea alone has several hundred languages. That's going to make for some veeeeeery long page titles.
If enough folks want to make a change to the structure, then by all means state your case for changing drastically the catalog guidelines, then discuss the proposal and having reached a consensus it can be presented to Xavier for consideration. I believe there's even a new feature which allows exactly this type of thing complete with voting. That seems to be the way to proceed, not simply taking an arbitrary decision with no consultation and pressing on despite unanimous objections, don't you think?
It's symptomatic of a wider problem where a lack of supervision lead to the deletion of thousands of token pages. It's a collaborative website, not the property of a select few to do with as they see fit.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
It's not a matter of appeasing the local language, it's a matter of reflecting what's actually written on the coin while listing what it's known as in English so people can search for it. Egypt on the other hand is another story. Their coins are known in English as Milliemes, many of the coins have millieme written on them. I don't see the point of having them listed as Mallīm
To me, the catalogue entry is there to help people find and catalogue their coins. If you know that the coin is a florin, you would search for "florin" If not, you would enter what's listed on the coin.
As a fairly new member, I think neilithic is pretty much spot on. I'd agree that the currency names should be in English as that's the "universal" language of this page, but I think the local name of the currency should also be there.
If I didn't know anything about Irish coins, I would search for what it said on the coin - Pingin, Flóirin etc - and I would expect that to show up in the search.
I personally agree with Neil also that both names should be used and listed, I would like to see any coin name in the native tongue as well as what label it has in the English language.
I have just finished editing all of the Ireland pages to include the English name in the title, it took me less than 10 minutes. I didn't see it as correcting someone's mistake because I was adding a word to each title and not removing and correcting.
I see points from both sides here but I do not understand why it would be such a big issue when no one is actually willing to fix what they are unhappy with, That confuses me somewhat.
I would have absolutely no problem editing any language of any coin if this issue is present.
This is simply my humble opinion and view on the subject and by no means am I trying to step on anyone's toes.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
Цитата: "Fluke"I see points from both sides here but I do not understand why it would be such a big issue when no one is actually willing to fix what they are unhappy with, That confuses me somewhat.
People keep iterating this point, but it has been states several times in the thread why no one fixes it. Most of us are reluctant now to make any changes in the catalog because our work gets deleted or modified in an unusable way.
Then you state no one will willing to fix what they are unhappy with. If you step back for a moment, you will see that the modifications we are unhappy with, were likely the result of someone else being unhappy with an entry we were originally happy with. If we follow your logic, we will just be in an endless edit war.
So realizing that just modifying things you are unhappy with is not the answer, the subject needs to be brought up and discussed so a consensus can be reached and an established format decided upon.
Some of the complaints are that there is already an established format (English terms according to the documentation), but that format is not being followed. Editing is a lot of work and time. If there is not established format than each party has an argument as to why their format is better. If there is an established format but it is not being enforced by people with the administrative power, the rest of us are not going to try to hold back the tide.
Цитата: "Fluke"
I would have absolutely no problem editing any language of any coin if this issue is present.
If this is the case, I think many of use would appreciate it if you started here: Egypt
With the new comments section there in a useful place for all the accents, dots, local denominations and other curio.
eng.X = Numerals as used on the coin, transfered to latin 0-9. Written out numbers on the coin must be changed into numbers (one rupee > 1 Rupee, five cents > 5 Cents). Fractures should be written as 1/2 to keep them searchable (not ½). If decimals are used, then use the English decimal separator (e.g. 0.05 Lek).
eng.currency is the name of the currency in English, with a capital. Singular or plural according to English usage, although we may need an exception for all nations who use the same form for both singular and plural (Dutch 25 Cent), or who have no number distinction (Vietnam 500 Dong). If the currency name is abbreviated on the coin, then write out in full.
eng.to_decimal = an eventual nickname is translated to the decimal value, e.g. "1 Dime / 10 Cents"
loc.X = Number as written on the coin, in the original alphabet)
loc.currency = Currency as written on the coin, in the original alphabet, singular, plural or any other inflected form. If the currency name is abbreviated on the coin, then write out in full, in the original language.
ruler, additional description, colloquial name = current practice, not in scope of this discussion. English only.
[ ] = optional
if eng.X+eng.currency = loc.X+loc.currency then don't repeat.
A "7-ribbon Soviet 15 KOP": 15 Kopeks (15 Копеек) - 7 ribbons
This will allow both the English user and the native user to search and find the coin.
In order to keep our members aboard who like to transcribe non-latin alphabets, I played with the idea and came up with this: 15 Kopeks (15 Копеек/15 Kopeyek) - 7 ribbons
But I think it's better of without the transcription: who ever will be searching by the transcription? In the end, Numista is coin catalogue, not a linguistic reference.
Something in Arab (I want to have the Arab numeral on the right of the denomination, but my computer doesn't let me do so ): 4 Fils (فلس ٤) - Faisal I 5 Piastres (قروش ٥) - Abdullah II
Actually the last coin says 'khmsa qrush', which is 'khamsa qirūsh' if the missing vowels are added, which translates to 'five kurush'. But someone searching would do it either in English or in Arab, and not in transcription. Translation of the legend has its own field on the coin page. This coin is also an example of a multilingual coin.
Many multilingual coins feature English as one of them (India, Sri Lanka, Singapore). Strictly speaking, it wouldn't be necessary to add any of the other languages in the title - the coin issuing authority made it easy for us. But courtesy may nevertheless require addition of the (main) local language.
For multilingual coins with only non-English languages, one could add one (rarely two) of the other languages to the title as local description: 5 Dinar (5 Dinara/5 Динара)
Цитата: "jadejackal"
If this is the case, I think many of use would appreciate it if you started here: Egypt
With the new comments section there in a useful place for all the accents, dots, local denominations and other curio.
Little unsure as to what you want there, Can you link me to an example of one that you would like changed and to what aspect of it you would want edited? Being from the UK I can easily make changes to Irish coins, Egypt may be a little out of my league if its translations that are wanted.
I can only edit them as a modify request, I don't have any authority to apply any changes so keep that in mind also.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
@ArnoV: I appreciate your creativity but the old system worked fine. 1 Pound, 1 Florin / 2 Shillings, and 4 Fils - Faisal I are all shorter and what regular numismatists use in the end anyway.
Am I at the wrong place?
My understanding was always, that this is an "international site" using English language, not an ENGLISH site!
I am happy to use English language as a means of communication, but reject to identify with Brits or Americans. Take no offense, nothing wrong with that, but, I would highly emphasize the difference which might not be understood by Englishman, who frequently wish-wash limits between the using of language and the national identity.
I am in full support of using currency names as they are written on the coin.
I think it is very simple and respectful. If it is Puiguiiun, then it is that. If it is Guneyh, then it is Guneyh.
Цитата: "imreh"Am I at the wrong place?
My understanding was always, that this is an "international site" using English language, not an ENGLISH site!
I am happy to use English language as a means of communication, but reject to identify with Brits or Americans. Take no offense, nothing wrong with that, but, I would highly emphasize the difference which might not be understood by Englishman, who frequently wish-wash limits between the using of language and the national identity.
I am in full support of using currency names as they are written in the coin.
I think it is very simple and respectful. If it is Puiguiiun, then it is that. If it is Guneyh, then it is Guneyh.
You're in the right place, but most people would probably disagree with your point of view.
An international site using English language means exactly what it says - using English language. As in, all the information is available in English. When you go to an English section of any site, whether it's Chinese, Russian, German, or international, you expect everything to be in English, including all the technical terms. The whole idea behind going to a specific language section of a site is so you can understand everything there, as long as you speak that one language. Now, there is nothing wrong with also including the original non-translated name, as long as the English name is there. The name in English is the first and foremost, must-have piece of info.
Generally agree!
However, I am not willing to translate or transcript any Hungarian currencies (as a referee), just to help ignorant English readers who find it difficult to actually read what is on the coin.
If you collect any of these currencies, pls, respect the issuer to the level of understanding what the heck are they. if you do not collect these currencies, then it is not of your problem.
Цитата: "imreh"Generally agree!
However, I am not willing to translate or transcript any Hungarian currencies (as a referee), just to help ignorant English readers who find it difficult to actually read what is on the coin.
If you collect any of these currencies, pls, respect the issuer to the level of understanding what the heck are they. if you do not collect these currencies, then it is not of your problem.
The English section of the site is here to help all English-speaking collectors, not the issuer or just the experts who may not require such help. If you are not willing to help English readers, that is your personal decision. I am sure others will step up who are and when they do, any attempt to undo their work could only be considered as malicious.
Цитата: "imreh"Generally agree!
However, I am not willing to translate or transcript any Hungarian currencies (as a referee), just to help ignorant English readers who find it difficult to actually read what is on the coin.
If you collect any of these currencies, pls, respect the issuer to the level of understanding what the heck are they. if you do not collect these currencies, then it is not of your problem.
The English section of the site is here to help English-speaking collectors, not the issuer or the experts who may not require such help. If you are not willing to help English readers, that is your personal decision. I am sure others will step up who are and when they do, any attempt to undo their work could only be consider as malicious.
Do not be so tough with me! - Most of my stuff is English friendly. Generally I wanted to say that ENGLISH here is a language not a nation!
Цитата: "imreh"Do not be so tough with me! - Most of my stuff is English friendly. Generally I wanted to say that ENGLISH here is a language not a nation!
Oh, I'm not trying to threaten you or anything. That would be silly. But the site needs to be useful to people who are not experts yet, so they can find the information they need, learn something from it, and maybe one day become experts themselves.
Цитата: "imreh"Generally agree!
However, I am not willing to translate or transcript any Hungarian currencies (as a referee), just to help ignorant English readers who find it difficult to actually read what is on the coin.
If you collect any of these currencies, pls, respect the issuer to the level of understanding what the heck are they. if you do not collect these currencies, then it is not of your problem.
The English section of the site is here to help all English-speaking collectors, not the issuer or just the experts who may not require such help. If you are not willing to help English readers, that is your personal decision. I am sure others will step up who are and when they do, any attempt to undo their work could only be consider as malicious.
Totally agree. You should be trying to make it as easy as possible for a novice collector to identify their coins. With the hobby diminishing, we should be doing all we can to encourage new collectors. Not arrogantly saying "If you can't read what's on the coin, then bad luck, I'm not going to help you."
My dear Imreh, we've had this conversation before. Why stop at the coin denominations? The case for changing all the country names, dynasties, rulers and coin series into what I intemperately described as "gibberish" is equally valid but equally misguided.
I would concede that there is a good case for allowing what is written on the coin to be included on the coin page, not the title, if that differs from the English translation. The Irish denominations are a good example. This isn't some rule I've dreamed up, it's Xavier's and for once I'm in agreement.
However, what is happening is the commonly understood English translations, either through some vague anti-English chauvinism or ignorance, are being replaced by superfluos and inaccurate translations courtesy of Google which nobody understands, nobody wants and nobody uses.
It's an Egyptian Pound. I know this because, A} it says so in big friendly letters right there on the coin, and B} I've been to Egypt, quite often, and they call it a Pound too. I got asked for plenty of Pounds but never once was I asked for a "Gunyah". The only time I have ever seen or heard it called a Gunyah is the Numista catalog. The whole Egyptian section is now such a mess of pidgin translations that it's unusable.
Justify that and I'll shut up.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Цитата: "neilithic"Totally agree. You should be trying to make it as easy as possible for a novice collector to identify their coins. With the hobby diminishing, we should be doing all we can to encourage new collectors. Not arrogantly saying "If you can't read what's on the coin, then bad luck, I'm not going to help you."
I can't agree more! To be new in coin collection is to be dropped in the Amazon with a note that reads "good luck to find your way back". We are the natives who are supposed to help this lost sole to find its way. By sound this we shod make the path easy to find and provide an understandable map. If we all write in our native tongues we wouldn't be able to communicate nor help each other. The map must reflect the reality, otherwise it will be impossible for the newcomer to understand and get were s-/he's going.
What I'm trying to say is that the Numista catalog should reflect the Standard Catalog of World Coins. If its Gunayh here and Pound there, how will I know it's the same thing if my mother tongue is neither Arabic or English? Which one is the "correct" one? Just make it as simple as possible.
And Imreh, the Hungarian catalog is no problem, since the name is written in Latin alphabet and have no English name, so don't worry ;-)
Цитата: "ArnoV"I'm on exactly the same page as Neill. I think this topic is jointly arriving at the following formatting rule for the coin description line:
eng.X eng.currency[ / eng.to-decimal][ (loc.X loc.currency])][ - ruler][ - additional description][ "colloquial name"]
Whereby:
eng.X = Numerals as used on the coin, transfered to latin 0-9. Written out numbers on the coin must be changed into numbers (one rupee > 1 Rupee, five cents > 5 Cents). Fractures should be written as 1/2 to keep them searchable (not ½). If decimals are used, then use the English decimal separator (e.g. 0.05 Lek).
eng.currency is the name of the currency in English, with a capital. Singular or plural according to English usage, although we may need an exception for all nations who use the same form for both singular and plural (Dutch 25 Cent), or who have no number distinction (Vietnam 500 Dong). If the currency name is abbreviated on the coin, then write out in full.
eng.to_decimal = an eventual nickname is translated to the decimal value, e.g. "1 Dime / 10 Cents"
loc.X = Number as written on the coin, in the original alphabet)
loc.currency = Currency as written on the coin, in the original alphabet, singular, plural or any other inflected form. If the currency name is abbreviated on the coin, then write out in full, in the original language.
ruler, additional description, colloquial name = current practice, not in scope of this discussion. English only.
[ ] = optional
if eng.X+eng.currency = loc.X+loc.currency then don't repeat.
Let's do some examples.
A Dutch "Wilhelmina 2½ G" would get the following description:
2 1/2 Guilders (2 1/2 Gulden) - Wilhemina
A "7-ribbon Soviet 15 KOP":
15 Kopeks (15 Копеек) - 7 ribbons
This will allow both the English user and the native user to search and find the coin.
In order to keep our members aboard who like to transcribe non-latin alphabets, I played with the idea and came up with this:
15 Kopeks (15 Копеек/15 Kopeyek) - 7 ribbons
But I think it's better of without the transcription: who ever will be searching by the transcription? In the end, Numista is coin catalogue, not a linguistic reference.
Nicknames which made a promotion to the actual coins themselves:
1 Dime / 10 Cents "Roosevelt Silver Dime"
1 Poltinnik / 50 Kopeks (1 Полтинник)
Countries like Belgium, who use different languages on their coins, compare the pair:
1 Franc - Albert II (French legend)
1 Franc (1 Frank) - Albert II (Dutch legend)
Notice that the first coin has no separate mentioning of currency in local language, as it would be the same as in English.
Something in Arab (I want to have the Arab numeral on the right of the denomination, but my computer doesn't let me do so ):
4 Fils (فلس ٤) - Faisal I
5 Piastres (قروش ٥) - Abdullah II
Actually the last coin says 'khmsa qrush', which is 'khamsa qirūsh' if the missing vowels are added, which translates to 'five kurush'. But someone searching would do it either in English or in Arab, and not in transcription. Translation of the legend has its own field on the coin page. This coin is also an example of a multilingual coin.
Many multilingual coins feature English as one of them (India, Sri Lanka, Singapore). Strictly speaking, it wouldn't be necessary to add any of the other languages in the title - the coin issuing authority made it easy for us. But courtesy may nevertheless require addition of the (main) local language.
For multilingual coins with only non-English languages, one could add one (rarely two) of the other languages to the title as local description:
5 Dinar (5 Dinara/5 Динара)
Just playing around a bit systemizing.
Ah, wouldn't it be beautiful!
Цитата: "pnightingale".... and I'll shut up.
I follow suit :)
That would be a very good idea considering you nearly started another forum chain reaction where heated responses are going to be made, especially when your point is exceedingly incorrect.
People from all over the world descend here to the English speaking side of Numista for a reason (The clue is in the site URL.... en. ) Which means all data here should be English, If coins are known by variation through different languages then it is compulsory they contain the common native name in that language as well as all other names it is known by.
Let me give you an example of just how wrong you are.... lets go back to 1968 England when the 10p was released, keep in mind that coin is to replace the 2 shilling coin..... but it doesn't until the early 1990's when the 5p and 10p are downsized.
Now here is the Brain teaser and the question that stomps all over your point, what is it called? 2 shilling or 10p?? or does it contain both names it is known by which ensures no matter what name is given, the vendor will know what coin they are referring to?
THAT is the point here and that is why all coinage must contain all names it is known by, you could potentially cheat someone out of learning about a certain coin by being arrogant about what language it should be in, as well as hinder people from searching and identifying a particular coin.
Please now live up to your word as stated in your last reply as your ridiculous opinion is provoking bad responses. I think we have had enough of that lately.
Restoration addict : Verdigris Removal : Zinc White spot removal : Iron Rust Removal : Silver brooch/necklace mount Removal
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- Most of my stuff is English friendly. Generally I wanted to say that ENGLISH here is a language not a nation! 
But the site needs to be useful to people who are not experts yet, so they can find the information they need, learn something from it, and maybe one day become experts themselves. 