World coins chat: India - British

India - British:



History:

The British set foot in India around beginning of 17th century long after the Dutch and Portuguese. The main intention at that was for trade. East India Company (EIC) in 1612 approached mughal emperor Jahangir for trading rights in Surat and other areas. Initially EIC faced intense competition from the Dutch and Portuguese but was eventually able to supersede them. EIC established trading posts in Surat (1619), Madras (1639), Bombay (1668), and Calcutta (1690). Around the mid of 18th century is when EIC slowly expanded their control over weakening Mughal and started gaining territories.

British mostly took advantage of weakening Mughals and conflicts between various kingdoms and princely states to quickly gain territories in India piece by piece. In 1799 EIC forces defeated and killed Tipu sultan, King of Mysore. And in 1803, following Second Anglo-Maratha war resulted in British capture of Delhi and control of large parts of India. EIC continued ruling until the Indian Rebellion of 1857 after which the administration of India was shifted from EIC to direct British Crown under Victoria.

In 1700 India's economy had a 24.4% share of world income, the largest in the world where as in 1913 India's economy had a 5.4% share of world income under the British Empire. The british ruled India until 1947 until the effects of World War II and Mahatma Gandhi's popular Quit India Movement forced the british to grant independence to India.

Coinage:

East India Company (EIC) first produced hammered (dump) copper coins of 1 and 2 Paisa Denominations Starting 1672 from Bombay Presidency. Some of coins of this period were also struck in Tin. Generally these coins are very expensive and rare to find (especially in good grades).


(Bombay Presidency Pice 1672)

Bengal and Madras presidency too started issuing their coinage during beginning of 18th Century. Interesting to note here that generally the higher denomination coinage (such as a rupee) was struck in the name of the current Mughal emperor that had almost no power over that territory. It is often confusing thus to differentiate coinage of British, Maratha and mughal issues especially for coins which did not have dates in them.

In 1791 the first machine struck coins were produced for Bombay Presidency in 1/2, 1 Pice and 2 Pice denominations. Beginning 1803 1, 5, 10 and 20 cash coins were issued from Madras presidency.


(E.I.C. Pice of 1791 - From HA.com)

In 1835, EIC combined the presidency coins to produce Unified coinage in the name of William IV for Silver coins, whereas the lower denomination copper coins were continued to be minted with "EAST INDIA COMPANY" name. In 1840 coins were minted with Victoria's portrait. After end of ruling of EIC, the first coins of direct British ruling were minted in 1862. Imperial issues bear obverse portraits of Queen Victoria (dated 1862–1901), Edward VII (dated 1903–1910), George V (dated 1911–1936), and George VI (dated 1938–1947). No British India coins were issued during the brief reign of Edward VIII.


(1862 Rupee - Victoria - © Joseph Kunnappally)

In general coins of British India are highly desirable specially in high grades. There are many die variations, mules of this series exists that are almost impossible to get in decent prices.

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/inde_britannique-1.html

Before 1835 the following system was in use in the Madras Presidency:

1 Pagoda = 3.5 Rupees = 42 Fanams
1 Fanam = 80 Cash

After 1835 the Rupee became the main unit:

1 Rupee = 16 Anna
1 Anna = 4 Pice = 12 Pie

The Pie was actually equal to 5 Cash. A Pagoda was a small gold coin worth around 8 Shillings at its time. The Rupee was a silver coin with a weight of 11.62 grams. Its value fluctuated as silver prices dropped versus gold in the second half of the 19th century and the Pound Sterling was linked to gold. For most of its existence a British Indian Rupee was worth 1 Shilling 6 Pence, or 13 1/3 Rupees per Pound.

Please note that the in Madras Presidency, Fanam to Pagoda conversion varied depending on time,

1688 - 1802: 36 Fanam = 1 Pagoda
1807- 1817: 42 Fanam = 1 Pagoda
1817- 1835: 46 Fanam = 1 Pagoda

Source: Krause catalog for South Asia

Thank you Sujit, I did not know that. Why did this system change from Fanam to Anna?

I think Fanam and Pagoda were more indigenous (probably more used in southern part of India) but Anna term was introduced by Muslims. Maybe it was changed to be more generic across india. I am not sure though.

Dear friends,found some other metal strikes some posted in our site ieNUMISTA and got confused.
How can an OMS OF RUPEE AND HALF RUPEE STRUCK IN GOLD BE OF THE SAME WEIGHT AS SILVER,BOTH STRUCK FROM THE SAME MOLD BUT THE DENSITIES ARE DIFFERENT
PLS HELP

I am happy to help but COULD YOU PLEASE REFRAIN FROM USING CAPITALS? It makes it look rather urgent which it obviously isn't.

To answer your question, what coins are you actually referring to? Are these restrikes in gold or are these meant to have the same weight as their silver counterparts, in which case one would expect them to be smaller and thinner?

The gold Mohur had the same weight as the silver Rupee and had a diameter of 26 mm versus 30.5 mm for the silver Rupee. At that time a gold to silver ratio of 15 to 1 was quite common, and hence a Mohur was equal to 15 Rupees. In the late 19th century the price of silver dropped and a Mohur increased in value versus silver Rupees. A newer 15 Rupee struck in gold therefore had a lower weight.

Always found interesting and have many of these coins in my collection. The British era saw a lot of coin denominations ranging from the 1/12 Anna (I pie or pice) up to 1 Rupee and of couse the Mohurs.

The Rupee coin was very large given its exchange was 1/4 and was easily convertible to the British penny (1 Anna = 1 penny) and hence how a Mohur was convertible to a Pound.

I am not an expert and could be wrong, perhaps the Rupee was at 2/- rather than 1/4 and I know that Rupees and Mohurs originally go back to Mughal coinage as various Nizars and Shahs issued Rupees?

The coins from 4 annas (1/4 Rupee up) were silver until 1946 when the last 2 years of British coins were Cupronickel and I think post 1920 coins are .500 silver. There was silver 2 anna coins until 1906 or something when the lozenge and scalloped shaped ½, 1 and 2 anna coins came out.

Calcutta and Bombay (Now Kolkata and Mumbai) mints also issued Gold sovereigns for the British Empire between 1900 and 1932 as well.

friends i am sorry i would not use capitals till needed.
my question was a bit different. suppose there is a mold of 1862 bombay mint one rupee silver,
the silver one rupee when struck weighs 11.6 gms
what would be the weight of gold rupee struck from the same mold,it would be more than the coin struck in silver or less

In the 1950s to 1970s, it was possible to go to the mints and request them to strike various denominations of British india coinage using the original dies in any metal you liked as long as you brought the material yourself. So KM lists various British india coins in other Metal Strikes (OMS) as well. Note these were “made to order” coins struck well after the British were out of India

Цитата: "raju mal"​friends i am sorry i would not use capitals till needed.
​my question was a bit different. suppose there is a mold of 1862 bombay mint one rupee silver,
​the silver one rupee when struck weighs 11.6 gms
​what would be the weight of gold rupee struck from the same mold,it would be more than the coin struck in silver or less
​

​A quick Google tels me "Silver weighs in at 655 lb for a cubic foot. Gold is really heavy at 1206 lb for a cubic foot."
So using the same ratio your 11.6g silver coin would weigh 21.36g in gold.

thanks for your reply sir ,but this still doesnot cover/answer my quest. ok people cud get their metal and cud get them struck but again if a mold of silver rupee had a volume to fill 11.66gms of silver to make a coin ,how could same weight of silver be of gold coin once struck through the same mold while there is a SUBSTANTIAL DIFFERENCE in DENSITIES of GOLD AND SILVER
GOLD IS 80 PERCENT HEAVIER BY MASS

thanks for your reply.
it is this only what i intented to prove.
in our Numista search under OMS coins of british india ,i came across gold rupee and half rupee of the same weight as silver but struck in gold in the same molds.
is it ok?

Цитата: "ashlobo"​In the 1950s to 1970s, it was possible to go to the mints and request them to strike various denominations of British india coinage using the original dies in any metal you liked as long as you brought the material yourself. So KM lists various British india coins in other Metal Strikes (OMS) as well. Note these were “made to order” coins struck well after the British were out of India

​Were there any attempts to strike coins in the same metals they were originally produced in then sell them as authentic coins?

Цитата: "CassTaylor"​

Цитата: "ashlobo"​In the 1950s to 1970s, it was possible to go to the mints and request them to strike various denominations of British india coinage using the original dies in any metal you liked as long as you brought the material yourself. So KM lists various British india coins in other Metal Strikes (OMS) as well. Note these were “made to order” coins struck well after the British were out of India

​​Were there any attempts to strike coins in the same metals they were originally produced in then sell them as authentic coins?

​unfortunately I’m hazy on the details. When I was a teen back in Bombay, my neighbour showed me a couple of his OMS coins in silver and gold what should have been coppers. He had started collecting just prior to independence. The unfortunate part was that I was not as inquisitive as I should have been because I only collected Rep. India back then and I didn’t even think to ask questions such as which particular denominations. Dates were used for restrikes or was there a limit to the quantity or simply how did he even approach the mint and get it done.

thanks friends,i still feel there is soo less known about british india coins which is just 200 years old and when the presentation of literature and dialect were the same as today, and see how authentically we talk about coins thousands of years old.
this is a grand hobby but was/has been invaded by investors. any coin which is different and is being held by big investor the books authenticate with no scientific or logical reasoning. i have been offered these oms in gold but couldnot gather the courage to buy after thinking rationally.
GOD BLESS US ALL

Цитата: "raju mal"​thanks friends,i still feel there is soo less known about british india coins which is just 200 years old and when the presentation of literature and dialect were the same as today, and see how authentically we talk about coins thousands of years old.
​ this is a grand hobby but was/has been invaded by investors. any coin which is different and is being held by big investor the books authenticate with no scientific or logical reasoning. i have been offered these oms in gold but couldnot gather the courage to buy after thinking rationally.
​ GOD BLESS US ALL

​depending on what price it was offered for, you could have dodged a bullet; it may simply have been a jewellers imitation

no brother i donot talk about imitations but if you go thru our numista catalog you find half rupee and one rupee in gold same weight and radius as silver

Цитата: "raju mal"​friends i am sorry i would not use capitals till needed.
​my question was a bit different. suppose there is a mold of 1862 bombay mint one rupee silver,
​the silver one rupee when struck weighs 11.6 gms
​what would be the weight of gold rupee struck from the same mold,it would be more than the coin struck in silver or less
​

​To your specific question gold rupee would weigh more. For actual weights refer to 'Indian Coinage Act' 1870

The main coins issued by British India between 1840 and 1947 included most of the following.

 

Gold coins.

Gold Mohurs worth 15 Rupees - weight dropped from 11.8 grams down to 7.95 by 1918 as a 15 Rupee coin. Gold mohurs at full weight were only issued until 1891. After that date Calcutta mint occasionally issued the British gold sovereigns. 1918 15 Rupee coins were a one off issue.

 

Banknotes caught on after 1915, and the Rupee must have been devalued with the 15 Rupee coin weighing only 7.98 grams (Sovereign weight) in 1918. However unlike the UK, the Rupee coinage remained good silver through to late 1939.

 

Gold 5 Rupee coins weighing 3.97 grams (Same as half sovereign worth 10/-)

 

Silver coins.

4 denominations, but all ended up being base metal at one point or another

 

Silver Rupee = 16 Annas, 64 Pice, 192 Pies

 

These coins were the mainstay of British India and were minted in the 100s of millions most years. The coin was fine silver (.925 or .900) for the period to 1939 - although no Rupees were minted between 1923 and 1934 and only in big numbers again after 1940. 1921 and 1922 Rupees are very rare and 1935/36 were proofs only, 1938 and 1939 Rupees are also very rare, especially 1939. After 1940 the coin was 50% silver and 1946 became Nickel. After Independence, no 1 Rupee coin was issued in Precious metal. Rupees weighed 11.64 grams and were 30.5mm in size on average. weighing marginally more than a British Florin, the coins were 2mm larger in diameter and bit thinner.

 

Half Rupee = 8 Annas, 32 Pice, 96 Pies

   

Also a silver coin, except when issued as 8 Annas in 1919 and 1920. These coins were slightly larger than a shilling. Most designs mimicked the 1 Rupee, but with half on them. Continuous issuing of these coins remained through the 1920s and 1930s, but numbers were very low, in the low millions. Like the 4 annas below, base metal issues of these denominations were not popular and reserved for the 2 Annas and below.

 

Quarter Rupee = 4 Annas, 16 Pice, 48 Pies

Again a small silver coin for most of its life except between 1919 and 1921 when it was a cupronickel scalloped coin listed as 4 Annas rather than a ¼ Rupee. They were the size of a 6 pence. Again designs mimicked the bigger coins. The Cupronickel coin was not a success and it was returned to silver in 1925.

 

Two Annas = 1/8 Rupee, 8 Pice, 24 Pies

This was a teensy silver coin until 1917 when it was replaced as a copper nickel square coin with rounded corners, but designed to look lozenge shaped. Unlike higher face value coins, it remained a cheap cupronickel coin to the end, except for a period between 1942 and 1945, where 2 and 1 Anna and the ½ Anna coin were issued in brass to assist with the war effort.

 

Base metal coins.

This includes 4 Bronze denominations and one that was Cupronickel

 

One Anna - 4 Pice, 12 pies, 1/16 of a Rupee

This was not even a coin until 1906 when it was released as a cupronickel scalloped shape coin. Basically the penny to the Rupees shilling/florin status - it saw a lot of use. Between 1942 and 1945 the coin was Brass like the one above and one below it.

 

Bronze.

There were four bronze denominations, but only 2 were widely used, the ¼ Anna and 1/12 Anna.

 

½ Anna = 2 Pice, 6 Pies, 1/32 of a Rupee

Large penny sized coin only issued from 1862 to 1893, it was reissued as a brass/ nickel coin in 1942 and issued as Cupronickel in 1946 after wartime shortages of nickel ended

 

¼ Anna = 1 Pice, 3 Pies, 1/64 of a Rupee

Halfpenny sized bronze coin, which lasted right through. This coin saw a lot of usage. In 1943 it was made into a smaller ring coin with a big hole and re worded as One Pice as opposed to ¼ Anna.

With the ceasing of minting of the 2 lower denominations in 1942, this became the lowest denomination of coin in use between 1943 and 1957 (The Independent Indian State took over the Rupee/Anna/Pice system and changed it a decimal rupee made up of 100 Naye Paisa in 1957, Pakistan followed suit in 1961, dropping the Naye (New) a few years later to reveal decimal rupees made up of 100 Paisa/Paise (Singular).

 

½ Pice = 1½ Pies, 1/8 Anna, 1/128 of a Rupee

Very small farthing sized copper coin, not much use, mostly seen in Victoria and Edward era. It was lasted issued in 1942

 

1/12 Anna = 1 Pie, ⅓ Pice, 1/192 of a Rupee

This teensy bronze coin was actually worth ⅔ of the coin above rather than half and was the lowest value coin minted, smaller than a farthing and the same size as the Ceylon Half cent (The decimal rupee there was 200 ½ cents, so this is only marginally more). It was last issued in 1942