Got this coin and can't find any information on the countermark. The only information I found is that the Spanish (and Spanish colonial) silver coins of that period were countermarked for use in England in 1797 and 1804 (http://www.britnumsoc.org/publications/Digital%20BNJ/pdfs/2000_BNJ_70_11.pdf) but only dollar (eight real) coins were officially countermarked.
In 1797, a half real corresponded almost exactly to an English groat (4 pence) but there is no information on the small coins being contermarked, and the countermarks of Bank of England are very different from this one.
Do I miss something or it's a fake?
Для всього свій час, і година своя кожній справі під небом
Since the countermark is only a number, it's unlikely that its origin can be traced. There are tens of thousands of coins with one or two letters or numbers out there. In addition, it most probably isn't an official countermark since the punch was created by an amateur. It perhaps is not even a single "4" punch, but rather a series of lines punched to form a "4". Why? Because the lines are of varying thickness and seem to go off design at the back of the head (at the angle of the numeral) and at the top where there are two "spikes" rather than a neat flat surface to the numeral.
It's not a disappointing at all - I knew from the very beginning that there is something wrong with this coin but the price was right and I bought it without hesitation.
You are right and I agree that it's probably not one punched mark but a series of individual lines to make "4" and, therefore, can't be an official countermark. But you see, the coin looks quite legit, the period is right and the exchange rate (half of real = 4 pence) is dead on spot for late 1790s. So, the question is - is it a "home-made" punch from the period (in the document I cited above, there is a mentioning of at least two English companies that privately countermarked Spanish silver for circulation in England) or is it a contemporary fake?
I just thought that someone might have seen something like this before...
Для всього свій час, і година своя кожній справі під небом
If it's a series of lines punched to form a "4", then it's a private individual who did it; any extensive punching by a state or a private company would have used a "4" punch.
In this case, therefore, I think the equivalence ½ real = 4 d is coincidental. Someone needed to create a token of some sort with a "4" punched on it -- perhaps for a board game or as an admission token.
FYI some time ago, there was this post about an "H" countermark made in ways very similar to your "4". Note also this one. Perhaps we should start collecting all such posts, because the compare-and-contrast approach would be useful for such coins.
Again, I agree about the punch - it looks more like an individual one and was definitely not intended for any kind of scaled countermarking. On the other hand, the coin itself fits well all the the parameters of a genuine coin (and isn't really that cheap) - so, I have some difficulties imagining someone making a game token out of well preserved 18 century silver coin...
Для всього свій час, і година своя кожній справі під небом
I have no doubt that the coin is genuine. The "4" was probably added a very long time ago by someone who didn't look at the coin as a collector's item.
As for circulating value, it was rather low, though not insignificant, but it is possible (for example) that in the country where this coin was circulating, it was removed from circulation at a time when a new supply of legal-tender silver coins was struck. This situation was found in Canada and other countries with a very short supply of any coins in colonial times, except for a whole range of foreign coins. Colonial Spanish coins struck in Mexico City (like this one) or Lima entered the USA and Canada in the tens of thousands. Progressively, the Spanish coins disappeared from circulation after the US and Canada started to mint their own silver coins. Wherever in America or Europe this coin was found before entering the collectors' market, it may have fell into disuse for such a reason and was found only decades later ─in the 1840s, 1850s...─ in a drawer or while demolishing a wall or a staircase...
This is all speculation, of course, but it shows that there is no problem with finding coins ─even silver coins─ counterstamped by some private individual for a rather modest purpose...
Цитата: "glykan"OK, you've convinced me - I will consider it as a 18 century silver coin mutilated for unknown purpose
No reason to suspect it isn't genuine, and even calling it mutilated is a little harsh! It was probably a genuine counterstamp for whatever reason. Agree with all the above though, nice find.
Oggy,
I like this coin and will keep it as a "crystallization center" for my (future) collection of old/colonial Spain. Actually, I like it so much that I am considering to use it's image as my new avatar.
I just was a bit excited by what seems to be a pure coincidence - the countermark "4" is kind of odd but fits the bill of the British countermarking of Spanish silver by George III. Anyhow, I learned a piece of history and had a nice conversation with the fellow collectors - isn't it exactly what we are here for?
Для всього свій час, і година своя кожній справі під небом
Glykan I think it is a nice coin. I don't think it was stamp or punch in the coin. To me looks like a V carving tool was used. From what I can see of tool makes. And that would not distort the back
Just like Cerulean I was wondering why this "punch" (or whatever it is) didn't leave any trace on the back. Perhaps ALLRED1950 is right about the V carving tool, but this is a very small coin (I have a 1781 one), and it was probably quite a challenge to carve anything on such a coin, especially with ancient tools. A close look with a magnifier would probably settle the issue.
And that has me thinking about the Spanish coins circulating in Canada (and the US) until some time in the 19th century. I don't think I have ever seen an example with a merchant countermark. Perhaps it was too late for that since the period of extensive merchants countermarks started in the 1850s or 1860s. The most prolific "countermarkers" were Devins & Bolton, Montreal pharmacists, but they countermarked only copper/bronze, including this 1803 US large cent now in my collection.
In Canada we have a famous example of an alteration of the Spanish dollar that may have been official, the PEI holey dollar and plug.
Iam sorry, but need to vent here. The thought that it can not be done or very hard to do , With ancient tools. Is a very sad thought. And makes me nuts. The old ones made things we have big problems making now , with all of are new tools. Think of it this way The dies to make the coin was all made by hand with ancient tools. They made everything they needed by hand. Go before metal, A needle made out of bone with only stone tools. They made drills out of rock down to 1 or 2 mm. For just the hole. And anyone who needed a needle new how to do it. We have become so disconnected with everyday things it going to kill us, if we have to relearn it again. For a generation with cell phones, we can barely make anything from the start. You just go get it. Here something to try , try making a wood spoon from a tree. I mean you can not go get a nice peace of lumber from a store. Go make your own wood , and get it ready for carving.
my issue iam sorry if I upset anyone, This attitude that the old ones could not or have a hard time doing something we can not even do now. Bugs me
yours daryl
Цитата: "ALLRED1950" Iam sorry, but need to vent here. The thought that it can not be done or very hard to do , With ancient tools. Is a very sad thought. And makes me nuts. The old ones made things we have big problems making now , with all of are new tools. Think of it this way The dies to make the coin was all made by hand with ancient tools. They made everything they needed by hand. Go before metal, A needle made out of bone with only stone tools. They made drills out of rock down to 1 or 2 mm. For just the hole. And anyone who needed a needle new how to do it. We have become so disconnected with everyday things it going to kill us, if we have to relearn it again. For a generation with cell phones, we can barely make anything from the start. You just go get it. Here something to try , try making a wood spoon from a tree. I mean you can not go get a nice peace of lumber from a store. Go make your own wood , and get it ready for carving.
my issue iam sorry if I upset anyone, This attitude that the old ones could not or have a hard time doing something we can not even do now. Bugs me
yours daryl
Please, please... I know people back then knew how to make all kinds of things, and were generally much more resourceful than we are now. But here we're probably talking about some guy who wanted to make a numeral "4" on a coin, not a die cutter. I thought that was obvious from the context.
Whether you like it or not, ancient tools were not as accurate as modern tools. Anyone who compares the number of variants in ancient and medieval coins to contemporary coins should be able to understand that. The past should be looked at objectively; it should not be idealized.
Iam not trying to idealized the past. Most of would be dead now. Old age was 40. But the workmanship was very good. And yes everything was different, because it was made by hand. Even the tools were made by hand, with everyone different too. But take a copper wire saw with sand and water. you can get just as accurate cut in granite as you can with modern tools. It took a lot longer , but can be done. Iam just saying don't under estimate the past.
Daryl,
Yes it looks like carving - and it perfectly explains the multiple lines on the top of "4" and a slight curvature of the left top (angled) line of "4". And yes, tools for metal carving exist for long time and yes, it is absolutely feasible.
On the other hand, there must be a damn good reason to individually carve the coin - such tools are quire rare, require very specific skills and training and curving small details (like serif) is kind of precision work (the size of "4" is barely 6x5 mm). Anyhow, here is a slightly enlarged picture - all what I could squeeze out of my cell phone camera.
Для всього свій час, і година своя кожній справі під небом
Hey Eugene
Yes I think it has been carved. By the 1850's the tooling and skills were widely there. Just look up love tokens and see some of the work that was done. And I don't think the work is highly skilled. And before the 1850's if a town had a smith , Black for iron or silver smith , tin, copper, well you can see. Tooling and skill was around. Even if there was a printer , new paper, tooling and skill was there. It could have been made for a weight for a scale for a smith. It equals the weight in silver to a 4 pence, I think. They used coins a lot for counter weights for balance beam scales. Well I like it a lot and is a nice coin. I would be very happy to have in my collection.
I collect cook books. And my lastest is from Boston 1859. Well it is A young housekeepers friend. And the information in about iron is really highly skilled. Cooking pots ,flatware, etc.So if there was skills for iron, some hardening, for house wives , was there. The men had to know some too. So I have a hard time thinking the skills were rare. Measuring was a lot different. A know a standard dry measurement of that time was an English tea cup. Which the English had standardizes back in the 1700's. So iam thinking it could be a home made weight.
Hey I still have your UK 1918 H penny I hope to have my ducks all in a row by winder . Hope we can have a swap.
Oh another thought before the old world came to here, natives know how to harden copper.
yours daryl
Since I collect a lot of British empire coins I think I can safely rule out that this coin never did or was intended to circulate in the UK.. In the colonies however...
i have no no documents to back this up as suck but I know and indeed have some cut and countermarked Spanish and French coins of the West Indies. It was common practice to keep these coins within the land of the country which issued them. Sometimes it's to revalue them such as the Hannay & coltart Antigua farthing was sometimes countermarked to fractionalise the farthing.
I therefore think it could be a route well worth looking at too see if maybe this 4 was carved in say 1820's when all of the colonies officially changed over to sterling, which was meant to oust Spanish colonial coinage. It stands to reason that inscribing 4 on a coin valued at the groat would be beneficial for keeping accounts but also keeping the coin within the realms of the land.
Keep in mind he 1/2 real from Jamaica countermarked was valued at 5 pence as they weren't always at par with sterling.
Remember that this is not a countermark but a series of lines carved in the form of a figure 4. So it was most probably not meant to be a mark of value.
If glykan's coin circulated in colonial Canada, it was regulated at different points in time, for example in the 1842 Currency Act for the Province of Canada (reprinted in the Canada Gazette, May 7th 1842, which is available on-line):
The Act also regulates British, American and other coins in gold, silver and bronze.
I would think of bidding on it but the postal fee to Canada is prohibitively high...
BTW, I don't have a lot of experience with the privately "countermarked" coins, but it seems to me that the number "4" is in favor - at least I didn't see many coins with any other numbers. Or it's just my first impression and other numbers have also being used?
Для всього свій час, і година своя кожній справі під небом
I was thinking likewise that "4" seemed to be rather common (it's the third one in this thread alone). Perhaps it's a coincidence, or maybe it's partly because it's one of only three numbers (with "1" and "7") that can be done with lines alone.
Glykan, here's the coin you should be looking for:
The British were short on coinage, so they stamped King George III's image on Spanish 8 Real coins. They became known as "the head of a fool on the neck of an ass."
Цитата: "Steve27"Glykan, here's the coin you should be looking for:
The British were short on coinage, so they stamped King George III's image on Spanish 8 Real coins. They became known as "the head of a fool on the neck of an ass."
there's also the oval countermark and the "bank of england & bank of Ireland dollars which were completely overstruck on 8 Reales and often have detail of the undertype showing.
If Glykan is interested in Canadian coinage and countermarks (C/Ms), one could argue that the quintessential Canadian C/M is DEVINS & BOLTON, with an estimated 150,000 copper coins and tokens countermarked in the 1860s (though of course only a fraction of them still survives). Here is one I recently acquired for less than CDN $25 (the real thing actually looks better than in the picture):
This is by far the most extensive private countermarking in the Americas (Devins & Bolton were pharmacists in Montreal). Next in quantity comes the C/Ms of G.G. Wilkins, a dentist in New Hampshire. Brunk estimates his production at about 100,000.
Steve27, Mark240590, Camerinvs,
Not that I was specifically looking for the any countermarks, I've got this one by pure chance though I must admit that it started growing on me and I am going to look for all kind of countermarks more closely. Provided that they are affordable...
Для всього свій час, і година своя кожній справі під небом
Цитата: "glykan"I've asked the seller if he can offer a cheaper shipment options and it still was between CAD12 and CAD15 - way too much for one coin shipment.
Yes, quite a lot for one coin, but this is an average US-Canada shipment charge in my own experience.
Most frustrating is when a US dealer has Canadian coins that interest you, but he doesn't ship outside the US. This happened to me recently and there seemed to be nothing I could do. I tried to contact him, but eBay would not even let me do that.
Цитата: "ALLRED1950" Iam not trying to idealized the past. Most of would be dead now. Old age was 40. But the workmanship was very good. And yes everything was different, because it was made by hand. Even the tools were made by hand, with everyone different too. But take a copper wire saw with sand and water. you can get just as accurate cut in granite as you can with modern tools. It took a lot longer , but can be done. Iam just saying don't under estimate the past.
You are a remarkably skilled and resourceful fellow. I place a very high value on such abilities. There is always a place for you inside the Nightingale Compound in the Tennessee mountains.
Non illegitimis carborundum est. Excellent advice for all coins.
Make Numismatics Great Again!
Thank you Phil . It just like all the stone monuments How could they have made them. Well last night at work I made just over 1300 springs at 8 lbs each. And put in the heat treat oven . What is 3 yards away. For a 54 year old man I moved over 10,000 lbs three yards in 8 hours. Don't under estimate what we did in the past
