In the catalog the you can only find the Spanish Netherlands 1556-1713 and the Austrian Netherlands 1713-1795, both branches within the Habsburg family. The period 1482-1556 is not specified in the catalog.
The period I discribed as "Habsburg Netherlands 1482-1556" was discussed as Burgundian period becaus Maximilian of Habsburg was only regent because of his age.
Dazaya comment:
"Burgundian Netherlands (1384-1482) - Current Belgium + Netherlands
Starts with Philippe le Hardi
Burgundian Netherlands (1482-1506) - Current Belgium + Netherlands
Philippe le Bel was titular duke of Borgoña, Brabant, Limburg and Luxembourg, Count of Flanders, Habsburg, Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland, Tirol and Artois, and lord of Antwerp and Mechelen, among other cities, between 1482 and 1506, inheritance from his mother Mary of Burgundy. Maximilian of Habsburg was only regent for his age minority."
My Question:
Is it cleary that the coin is not correctly added to the Durch Republic. But were should it be? Burgundian Netherlands as Numista member Dazaya said or should there be a Habsburg Netherlands for the missing period?
Thanks in advance for discussing it!
Gr. Michael
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Rename 'Belgium Feudal' to 'Low Countries Feudal': every coin from before the Burgundian period. This would incluse Free Frisia coins. For Flanders the Burgundian period starts in 1384, for Holland in 1432 and for Gelre only in 1534 on top of my head.
Rename Burgundian Netherlands to Seventeen Provinces and include all coins in name of dukes of Burgundy up until the rule of Philip II, similar to what Michael proposed.
Spanish Netherlands for coins from 1555 until 1714, as long as they are in the name of the Spanish King, even if they are from areas that became part of the Dutch Republic.
Some could argue to split the era when the Low Countries were still the Seventeen Provinces from the time that the Southern Netherlands existed next to the Dutch Republic, but for Flemish or Brabantian coinage it is hardly possible to find a correct cut-off, so I'd rather make the split on the basis of ruler and title.
Thank you for reacting. You are correct for Flanders & Artois (1384), Namen (1421), Brabant & Limburg (1430),Holland & Zeeland (1433), West Friesland (1432), Luxemburg (1443). Gelre never came under the rule of the burgundian dukes.
1)The Proposal to rename Belgium to Low Countries Feudal seems right to me!
2)The second propal, renaming the Burgundian Period could be discussed. I would personally keep that name as there is a pretty solid cut-off. In 1482 the son of Maria from Burgundy (Filips) inherited the Netherlands as landlord. He was the last ruler of the house Burgundy. till his dead in 1506.
Zeventien Provinciën (Seventeen Provinces) (1543-1581)
-It was named the seventeen provinces after Gelre was taken and added to the Habsburg Netherlands. Starting From 1543 till the northern Netherlands seperated. And as Filips II became king of Spain and the Netherlands in 1555. The Seventeen Provinces would only be used for the period between 1543 en 1555.
My proposal:
-Low country's Feudal - Everything before the burgundian period, including Free Frisia
-1384-1506 Burgundian Netherlands, minted on name of the Burgundian Dukes.
-1506-1555 The only name for this period I came across is the Habsburg Netherlands. Even though the Habsburg Netherlands is also used for the entire period under Habsburg rule..
-1555-1713 Spanish Netherlands (Coins in name of Spanish King, including parts of the Dutch Republic who minted on name of the Spanish King)
-1713-1795 Austrian Netherlands (Coins in name of the Austrian Rulers of the house Habsburg)
What do you think?
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
While enjoying the lovely scenery of the Southern Californian Pacific Coast I am still trying to think what to do here. I like Michael's ideas, but it will have to come with a manual for newbies.
I hope you are enjoying you're holiday! It is still one of my dreams to go to Southern California one day;)
I agree that it would be hard for new or even experienced members to pick the right country/ruler to add new coins. Are there other country's that use the kind of manual you are describing?
I do think this will create a better catalog for most of the coins minted in the region that is now Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Well we have the country intros on top of the page if you select a country from the country list. It could be explained in there. And all these need to go in the same 'Low Countries' grouping. It would be even greater when we can assign multiple groups per country where needed but we're not there yet. For example, Spanish and Austrian Netherlands could go with Low Countries and Belgium, and Dutch Republic with Low Countries and Netherlands.
Long story short, let's stick to your plan and introduce the Habsburg Netherlands as a 'chronological sandwich' between the Burgundian and Spanish Netherlands.
That would be great! I will keep sending proposals to change Coins to the right era and keep adding missing Coins.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Цитата: "Michaelw90"That would be great! I will keep sending proposals to change Coins to the right era and keep adding missing Coins.
Wait a little. We will discuss this on admin meeting. You are of course free to add coins to current sections and move them to right sections if they are listed wrongly now, but leave creation of new sections to us.
Sorry, I didn't meant I would create new sections. Only adding new Coins and sent change proposals of Coins that are currently listed wrong:)
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
I digged deeper... I'm still doubting about the period... Below you find every duke of Burgundy.
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House of Valois, territorial Dukes of Burgundy
Philip the Bold (1384–1404), son of King John II of France, by his wife Margaret III of Flanders
John the Fearless (1404–1419), son
Philip the Good (1419–1467), son
Charles the Bold (1467–1477), son
House of Valois, titular Duchess of Burgundy
Mary of Burgundy (1477–1482), Charles' daughter, married Maximilian I of Habsburg in 1477
House of Habsburg, titular Dukes of Burgundy (see Habsburg Netherlands)
Philip the Handsome (1482–1506), Mary's son; Maximilian I, his father, as regent (1482–1493), Margaret of York, his step-grandmother, governess (1489-1493)
Charles V (1506–1555), Philip's son; Margaret of Austria, regent (1507–1515) and (1519–1530)
As you can see, the period 1482-1555 is actually the House of Habsburg, but they are still titular Dukes of Burgundy. Could you say the Burgundian period should be strictly adressed to the House of Valois? and after, when the rulers were from the Hause Habsburg the Burgundian period ended even though they still had the duke title?
As discussed we proposed to divide the period. Burgundian Netherlands till 1506 (Death of Philip) en starting with Charles V in 1506 the Habsburg Netherlands and from 1555 the Spanish Netherlands..
And also Charles V became king of Spain in 1516. You could say the Spanish Netherlands started in 1516 and not later in 1555..
Maybe we just should not be to hard on ourselfs and keep with our proposal, but I can't help digging in to it...
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Can't we find a good term for the entire period from 1384 to 1555? It would limit the 'balkanisation' of the catalogue. Something like Burgundian and Habsburg Netherlands.
The concept of national states did not exist in those days, that's what makes it so hard. These entities were more like enterprises that ran through one powerful family.
Low Lands Feudal <-Everything before Burgundian period in the Low Lands;
1384-1555 : Burgundian Netherlands (Including the two Habsburg Rulers who were Burgundian dukes)
1555-1713: Spanish Netherlands
1713-1795: Austrian Netherlands
So let's forget about the Habsburg Netherlands then?
The only change left would be Belgium Feudal to Low lands Feudal.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
I'm currently working on a spreadsheet were I add the right rulers to all seventeen provinces and Dutch Republic city's who minted there own coins.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
I've made the Excel spreadsheet. Is it possible to post it here?
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
All I could do right now. Still in progress as some dates need to be checked. And maybe I will add the Southern minting cities.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Thank you! If someone likes it, I will gladly sent it by email.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
I send you a private message,
I would love to take a closer look.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
If you like coins, medals and tokens with ship motives follow my new instagram account with regular updates @numisnautiker
From time to time I sell some coins on Ebay make sure to follow me @apuking on Ebay.
I will look at your message! Thanks for your reaction. Some of them are already in it. I will check the missing ones and add them.
Some of the provinces in my list didnt mint their own coins, maybe i remove them later.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
Цитата: "Jarcek"Looks great. Takes some knowledge to read correctly, but I am sure concerned referees will gladly have a look!
Yes it does. You need to have some knowledge about the different houses and era's. But It is really interesting to read about it.
Special interest in Coins from the Low countries (Feudal-present). Former numista referee for Low Countries Feudal, Burgundian Netherlands, Spanish Netherlands, Dutch Republic, Netherlands and Netherlands East Indies.
