Brazil 80 réis 1821 - contemporary fake?

Hi,
I bought this coin (among others) in a local antiquary earlier today:



https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces24467.html

But when I was about to enter it here on Numista I found that something was strange... checked it and bazinga, wrong diameter, and then a strange typography compared to the genuine coin.

But then I remembered that we had many fake coins circulating at that time, specially in the interior (some places even had more fakes than genuines circulating).

And then I ask if it is the case of my coin.
Old fake or new fake?


Thanks in advance.

If you're so certain it's not real, then chances are it's a contemporary fake. Why? I'm basing this on 2 things:

1) It appears to have wear from circulation, in a natural manner not unalike real copper period issues.

2) It appears to be a relatively low value type, thus removing incentive for a modern forger to fake such a coin, when they can spend their time, resources and effort on Morgan dollars instead.

Цитата: "CassTaylor"​If you're so certain it's not real, then chances are it's a contemporary fake. Why? I'm basing this on 2 things:
​
​1) It appears to have wear from circulation, in a natural manner not unalike real copper period issues.
​
​2) It appears to be a relatively low value type, thus removing incentive for a modern forger to fake such a coin, when they can spend their time, resources and effort on Morgan dollars instead.

​Agree with you. And indeed the wear is compatible to a 200-year copper (I have others from that time).

And I found the text about the fake coppers of 1820-1830: https://brasilmoedas.com.br/artigos/#moedas-falsas (the coin on first photo is nearly identical to mine).

Here's the part the says that there were more fakes than genuines in some places:

"A falsificação de moedas era uma situação tão crítica que o governo da Província da Bahia, comunicou à corte do Rio de Janeiro que a proporção de moedas falsas era de 2/3 do meio circulante no comércio local, o que obrigava as próprias repartições públicas a aceitarem tais moedas, pois a recusa das mesmas causaria um colapso total no pequeno comércio, tipo gêneros alimentícios e de sobrevivência, o que afetaria principalmente as pessoas mais pobres e que eram, neste processo de fraudes e corrupção, as que menos tinham culpa."

"The counterfeiting of coins was such a critical situation that the government of the Province of Bahia informed the court of Rio de Janeiro that the proportion of counterfeit coins was 2/3 of the circulating medium in local commerce, which obliged the public offices to accept such coins, since their refusal would lead to a total collapse in small-scale food-and-surplus-type commerce, which would primarily affect the poorest people who were least guilty in this process of fraud and corruption."


My coin have a mintmark B of Bahia, which according to the text is one of the places with most counterfeit coins circulating. This and your answer confirm my theory of contemporary fake.

I'll keep the coin, this coin is unoficially part of our history, that's why I'm not upset when I found out that it was a fake (I still hate fakes, but this one I'll pass).

And thanks for the answer Cass.

That's really interesting, makes me want to go check some of my own older Brazilian coins.

You're absolutely welcome!

Цитата: "CassTaylor"​That's really interesting, makes me want to go check some of my own older Brazilian coins.

​Only on your 1820s coins, that's when the counterfeiting gone wild (due to the economical crisis caused by the return of the court back to Portugal taking all the gold and silver with them), the situation got back to normal after the coinage reform in 1835 (when the government padronized the copper coinage).

The counterfeiting was wider in the interior so pay more attention if the mintmarks are B, C and G (Bahia, Cuiabá and Goiás); as Rio de Janeiro (mintmark R) was the capital at the time I suppose that the counterfeiting was riskier there (but worth checking at all). And during the 1835 reform the false coins were all put out of circulation by the new law (same link but above on the part "Fatos e curiosidades sobre o Carimbo Geral" - "Facts and curiosities about the General Counterstamp"), so no false coins were counterstamped.

And that's it, we stumbled upon a false coin that is still a part of history (at least indirectly).

Thanks, my only 1820s Brazilian is a 40 Réis, and it doesn't seem like a fake (right dimensions, etc.)

But thanks for the info anyway, now I know a bit more about what to bee on the lookout for!

Thanks Cass.

By the way, on the profile of your 40 réis coin there are some date varieties that have the annotation "most are counterfeits". I noticed that all the annotated varieties are mintmark B (yours is R), after this topic now we know why.