Algeria - Quadruple de France de 96 livres; Any idea?

Hello,

I found these online by coincedance, any idea what these could be?
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces156915.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces156916.html (pictures in comment)

I've added all sources and info I found in comments section
Any help would be apprecited

and if someone could share this on the french forum as well, it would be appreciated
thank you

It is listed in "Monnaies Coloniales Francaises 1670-1988" by Gadoury and Cousinie on page 51 under the subtitle "Compagnie Royale d'Afrique as type number 3, with "Royaume d' Alger" (GoogleTranslate "Kingdom of Algiers") and "Hors Cote".

It is also listed in Krause's "Unusual World Coins", 6th edition, page 22, as a fantasy coinage for Ottoman Algeria (KM X1) in tin, with a catalog value of $1,650 in Fine.

It is also listed in the NGC World Price Guide, with the same catalog value.

that was helpful thank you!
Ive moved both under fantasy issues

Hmmm...
I wouldn't go with Krauze with this one. It really isn't a fantasy issue...

Цитата: "AmerSalmeh"​that was helpful thank you!
​Ive moved both under fantasy issues

​I think that you should have only one listing. Krause only lists one for this design. The type 1 in Gadoury is a totally different design (an octagonal 1774 jeton in silver).

Цитата: "loruca"​Hmmm...
​I wouldn't go with Krauze with this one. It really isn't a fantasy issue...
​

​i didn't find any other explanation
could you provide more info please?

Цитата: "halfdisme"​

Цитата: "AmerSalmeh"​that was helpful thank you!
​​Ive moved both under fantasy issues

​​I think that you should have only one listing. Krause only lists one for this design. The type 1 in Gadoury is a totally different design (an octagonal 1774 jeton in silver).

​could you please scan the page(s) mentioning these types?
i will add the Gad reference to the coin sheet
also the 2nd one isn't even in Krause nor lecompte
I've added X2 also from info in KM and without images

Цитата: "AmerSalmeh"​

Цитата: "loruca"​Hmmm...
​​I wouldn't go with Krauze with this one. It really isn't a fantasy issue...
​​

​​i didn't find any other explanation
​could you provide more info please?

​I am inclined to agree with loruca here, it doesn't look like a fantasy issue to me either.

It's actually a token issued by the Compagne Royale d'Afrique in Marseille to facilitate trade with the Barbary Coast states of North Africa, in this case Algiers (which was actually an Ottoman beylik at this time, not a kingdom!), which explains the imitation of French regal coinage. I quote the following excerpt from the same page of Lecompte's "Monnaies et Jetons des Colonies Françaises" about the Company:

Цитата: "Jean Lecompte"​
Dès le debut du XVIe siècle, les Marseillais étaient en relation commerciale avec les États Barbaresques où ils vendaient leurs merchandises contre céréales et corail. Mais c'est seulement en 1535 que François Ier obtint de Soliman Ier le Magnifique l'autorisation pour ses sujets de commercer librement sur certains points de la côte d'Afrique. De nombreuses compagnies s'étaient alors constituées se succédant les unes aux autres, pour pêcher le corail dans les eaux des concessions françaises. Créée en 1560, réorganisée en 1597, réformée en 1741 après avoir été dissoute (1710), elle a cessé d'exister sous la Revolution par le décret du 8 février 1794. Son siège était à Marseille et parmi ses comptoirs il y a lieu de citer: La Calle, Bône, et Collo en Algérie, le Cap Nègre, Bizerte et Tabarka en Tunisie.
​​

Translation: From the beginning of the 16th century the Marseillais had trade relations with the Barbary States where they sold their merchandise in exchange for wheat and coral. It was only in 1535 that Francis I obtained from Suleiman I "the Magnificent" authorisation for his subjects to trade freely at certain places on the North African coast. Numerous companies were founded, succeeding one another, for coral fishing in the waters of those French commercial concessions. [About the Compagne Royale d'Afrique] Created in 1560, reorganised in 1597 and recreated in 1741 after it had been dissolved in 1710, it [the Company] ceased to exist during the Revolution by a decree of the 8th February 1794. It's headquarters were in Marseille and among it's posts were La Calle, Bône and Collo in Algeria, and Cap Nègre, Bizerte and Tabarka in Tunisia.

so, a trade token?

Yeah, basically; I'm not sure to what extent it circulated, since it seems to be quite rare, but definitely not a fantasy as Krause says.

Also the pages should be moved into a section for Algerian tokens in Tokens rather than be under Algeria IMO.

No, not under tokens
Token/trade Coinage are listed under countries not under tokens in our catalog

but thanks a lot for the additional info!
always interesting to learn something new

PS: Krause's fantasy is more like = "private issues"

so what to name the currency, hmm..
French Trade Tokens - Livre (1786-1794)?

Maybe leave the first part of the date blank, since we don't know if earlier ones exist: so something like:
French Trade Tokens - Livre Tournois (-1794)

Interesting fact, the face value represented by this token, if Lecompte is correct about it being 96 livres, is massive; for reference in 1786 this gold coin, a louis d'or, was worth 24 livres, which had the purchasing power of about 175 euro today. Maybe that explains its rarity?

Цитата: "CassTaylor"​Maybe leave the first part of the date blank, since we don't know if earlier ones exist: so something like:
​French Trade Tokens - Livre (-1794)
​
​Interesting fact, the face value represented by this token, if Lecompte is correct about it being 96 livres, is massive; for reference in 1786 this gold coin, a louis d'or, was worth 24 livres, which had the purchasing power of about 175 euro today. Maybe that explains its rarity?

​In Gadoury, types 1 and 2 are octagonal silver jetons,
type 3 is this token in "Etain" dated 1786, and
type 4 is a similar token, but in lead ("Plomb"), with a similar reverse, but a man (king?) facing left on the obverse, dated 1788, also 45mm in diameter.

Types beginning with number 5 are 1 asper coins of the sultans.

Цитата: "halfdisme"​​In Gadoury, types 1 and 2 are octagonal silver jetons,
​type 3 is this token in "Etain" dated 1786, and
​type 4 is a similar token, but in lead ("Plomb"), with a similar reverse, but a man (king?) facing left on the obverse, dated 1788, also 45mm in diameter.
​
​Types beginning with number 5 are 1 asper coins of the sultans.

​any chance to post a scan of that page? Im guessing type 3 ie X#1 and type 4 is X#2

Цитата: "AmerSalmeh"​

Цитата: "halfdisme"​​In Gadoury, types 1 and 2 are octagonal silver jetons,
​​type 3 is this token in "Etain" dated 1786, and
​​type 4 is a similar token, but in lead ("Plomb"), with a similar reverse, but a man (king?) facing left on the obverse, dated 1788, also 45mm in diameter.
​​
​​Types beginning with number 5 are 1 asper coins of the sultans.

​​any chance to post a scan of that page? Im guessing type 3 ie X#1 and type 4 is X#2

​You are correct.
I will check with the photographer about getting scans for you.

The attached scans are from V. Gadoury and G. Cousinie's "Monnaies Colonaies Francaises 1670-1988" (1988), pages 50 and 51:

http://www.elfreeman2.com/t18/pg1.jpg

http://www.elfreeman2.com/t18/pg2.jpg

Since I do not speak French, I will defer to someone else for the translations.